Motion Bot

[qbot]

Just wondering, are motion bots allowed in the game?    

[Dracolich]

I don't know exactly what is a "motion" bot, but any kind of bots are forbidden and can be cause of deletion.

[east]

motion bot = mirc or web based bot that allow u to identify if an enemy is moving so that you can spell him.

Unless the spanishs do not sleep and refresh their spy page 24/7 every minutes, I am sure they are using one. Myself and a few of my friends have been spelled within few turns of movement few days in a row (I am not bluffing). No doubt it can be just pure coincidence (or some lifeless members being online 24/7), but being caught every time every day is just too suspicious. Someone ought to check this out. We don't want The Lord to become a game of bots. Are we playing this game based on skill or a bot? I know a few very good programmers too that can create all sort of bots if this is the type of game u guys want the lord to end up with.

And draco, I am suprised to hear u do not know of a "motion" bot given the spanish hacking reputation in Mari. You must be one of the cleanest mage. And before you even begin, no worry, I will be leaving next reset for good. So one less english mage for you to trouble yourself with.

[Onimaru]

hehehe only english mages are punished here redden remember that

[Iratus]

Hmmm I would have thought that anyone that played AM for any time at all would be aware of a movement bot. Frank. Myself and Marduk had a converstion about this very subject just days ago.

It does seem a little odd on the face of it. And when you get as indepth into as Frank, Myself, and Marduk did it gets even odder at times.

All I can tell you is this. There is several explainiations as to how this is happening. And all but one of those would be cheating. All I can say is that I am researching all possible explainations to this. If something unfair is being done then it will be handled.

[Dracolich]

Umm, you misunderstood me, I do know bots, simply I didn't recognize the name. As Iratus said, it's almost impossible for an old Mari player not to hear about them, and LTDD even have one in the last resets of the Mari spanish server. I didn't like it very much, but the question about its legality was in doubt, cause there was absolutely nothing stated in the rules about bots.
And I am a clean mage, cause I prefer to be called that than a good one.

But now is clearly illegal, as Frank stated, so LTDD doesn't have one. At least an official one, and if some members are using one, I will encourage to delete them ASAP and I will plead for Greendeath to not admiting them again in the guild.
And the same if another guild is using one.

But your claim is not clear. There is an option to follow the movements of a mage in the game, so to watch over certain mages is perfectly possible by 6 or 7 mages joining forces. And you are at war with many more. I don't know exactly how it works, cause I don't use it, but I know Loky have the whole EoE mages "followed", and he should be not the only one. With only the dates you provide, I can't see nothing wrong yet.

And the news about you leaving are sad to me, believe it or not. But not unexpected. I can see the whole picture here, and I'm afraid only Iratus is starting to see it now. I think many non-spanish players will leave, but I won't try to convince you to stay right now, cause indeed you will have a hard time. And it wouldn't be your fault, but you will pay for some others work.
Though, if you trust Iratus, and i think you should, I encourage you to come back in a pair of months. This is a problem we wanna solve, but it is impossible right now cause the programming of the game is the priority, and it takes the most of time. But one of the tasks I assumed was to made the official version of this game equally playable for english players, and I will work for it. If you really like this game, I hope you will come back.  

[Wulfbait]

motion bot = mirc or web based bot that allow u to identify if an enemy is moving so that you can spell him.

Like the seg web page and a meta refresh or just using some web browsers auto refresh?

I can understand perfectly the feeling, the first time i heard about a motion bot was when LTDD was at war with the Guild of the Lost Souls, an english guild at the spanish server in Mari. We learned there how to move spelled, looking at dispell web page before moving a turn and being patient waiting for serenity. It was a hard war.

As i told to Frank a pair of months ago, bots are a delicate question and must be stopped from the inner web programming, you cannot treat a sole player with a web auto refresh as a bot and delete it. Controling mages activity cannot be the only weapon against bots.

Anyway, there's something different right now. Frank has spoken and bots are not allowed, and he said bots, not just motion ones.


PS: My seg page has more than 100 mages too, some dead ones, like most of LTDD's mages from both sides of the Atlantic ocean.

[_LoKy_]

edit: sorry, Loky, Frank is the only one who can write here in spanish, an only to expect translation/Loky, solo Frank puede escribir en ingles aqui, y nada mas porque cuando tengo un rato se lo traduzco

[_LoKy_]

edit: if you could read it, you can write it/Si pudiste leerlo, podras traducirlo tu solito

[Iratus]

Firstly who editied loky because he speak spanish this is wrong. This does nor encourage good relations one bit.

Loky i dont think anyone accused you this was a discussion in general. You have noreason to defend yourself that I am aware of.

As for some english leaving this game this saddens me as well. I believe highly in this game. I think that it is and will be even better than the Mari AM.

I can say that things will get better here in time. Any that knows me clearly  know that I would not spend as much time and effort on this game if I did not totally believe in it.

Sure there has been a lot of bad water under the brifge with this English/Spanish issues and wrongs on both sides of that. But this has little do with the fact this is dang AM game on the net at this time.

Mari did little to fix provlems or issues. At least here people try to do things to better the game.

You have seen Franks words that vots are not legal here. and you have Franks word, My word  and every admins word that anyone using bots will be delt with.

dont allow the throw of war or things outside the game to keep you from your fun.

[Panther]

I didn't like it very much, but the question about its legality was in doubt, cause there was absolutely nothing stated in the rules about bots.

common sense...NO??

====================================

when people were unaware of disbanding being milking....all i got was that phrase above ^.   it seems there are not rules, but implied silenced rules that control this game as well.

====================================

i ask you just as it was asked upon me.

where is yyour common sense? dont your recognize that this is cheating?  you have played am long enough to recognize that these products are frowned upon and illicit.  If they were legal then why arent they included on the game page?

you all fully know well what was going on and what was legal and not.

if people get deleted because disbanding on your guild is 'milking'
then people should get deleted becuse they used bots to gain an unfair advantage

c'mon as am vets i thought ya fellas would know that USING BOTS IS CHEATING...

i guess we now know who the REAL cheaters are...and all along we have been wrongfully taking the bad rap.

be careful when you spit in the wind because it might fly back into your face

[Marduk]

i think we all agree that after multimagic, bot is the worst cheat you can do.

[Dracolich]

Well, there was a referendum, or at least a topic asking opinions, about this when LTDD created its bot. And I stated clearly I didn't wanted it. Some of the vets of LTDD would remember this. But majority won, and I wasn't very active for that moment.
If the decission would have been to use bugs or multies, and the majority voted yes, I would have leave LTDD instantly.
But when I say the legality of bots was not clear, I don't mean the rules of the game about it. I mean what people thought about it.
Even for me, I do not think it's the same a bot as the one LTDD had, which was used mostly to follow the market on IRC and find 80% power objectives, than to have 10 mages or exploit a bug that gives you zillions of gold. Not the same in terms of game playing, our positions on rank were almost unchanged due to the bot, it was only a tool to make the game much more comfortable to play.
And the charge over the server was minimal, or at least that's what said the ones who make it. I don't know much about that.
So though I repeat I disliked, I saw no reason to think LTDD would become a cheater's guild merely by using it. The fact is, in that overbugged, megacheaters server, knowing that the one and only way for us to reach the top was doing the same as the majority, we stayed as clean of cheats as we could, and kicked the ones who were discovered using them. Except for the bot, if you want to name it as a cheat.
But tell me then why we used one cheat and not the others. It would make no sense.

To end, right now is clearly forbidden. So there is nothing to argue. If finally Gae Bolga is found guilty of using one, in the future you could see his name or mine belonging to LTDD, but not both.  

[Panther]

our positions on rank were almost unchanged due to the bot

....we keep falling because whenever we move we get mysteriously spelled by loky or another mage.

i hope you guys have learned your lesson and i hope that when you are all deleted that you reincarnate and play this game the fair way.  because you have definately had an unfair advantage in many aspects. if the majority voted for somethign illegal then one would hope that the majority will be rightfully punished just as people have been previously punished for rule violating offenses (whether it be written or common sense)

and the bug thing, people bitch that we dont help find them, and then when we find one we get chastized for it...

[Iratus]

Marduk Posted: May 19 2004, 06:13 PM  

i think we all agree that after multimagic, bot is the worst cheat you can do.

Marduk I must disagree with you here, sorry. Multimage is one mage breaking rules and cheating. With the bot issues we have here this is entire guilds. With this bot  the leaders of the guilds it members all gain benfit from it.

When building and choosing to use the bot the entire guilds was implicit in this action. This is a premeditated action on entire guilds to cheat.

This is a far more serioius matter than just multis or using bugs.

A gulid cant know if a mage is multis only admins have that power.

Like I said the seriousness of this issue is the fact that entire guilds gained benefit and chose be to part of this as entire guilds.

Many mages have been harmed as a direct result of the use of this. Mages that otherwise might not of died or been harmed.

So anyone saying this is not or would not be a serious matter is wrong. And this will require serious action on part of admins.

[Marduk]

I understeand you Iratus, but i think that the use of multis is also and advantage for all the guild, is inocent believe that only 1 mage do a multi and get benefits for only him. In the reality multis are used by all the guild. By example, white mages full of gold being pillajed when needed by any memeber of the guild, red mages trowing VE when any mage of the guild need get soft a counter. Blue mages trowing spells, etc etc.
I think this is worst than a bot, anyways, we can discuss this and be sure we are going to agree in 1 thing
The multies and bots are chetaing and are bad for the game

the order of the wich is worst i will say they are to close to chose 1 without any doubt  =P

[Alfiander]

Let's see, I have been reading the things posted here and I have the feeling this got too big following quite partial interests.


To start I have read things like "guilty". Guilty of what? Of using a tool the admin implemented in the game? Of improving it? Then, why not forbide every tool that give certain advantages? Stack calculators, mana calculators, every kind of calculator (even the Casio type) cause not everyone has them and give his owner a considerable advantage over the one without them. Let's follow, we should forbid the IRC between players too, cause everyday info is shared about mages by that way and that's clearly an advantage over players, like me, who don't use it or rarely; also we should forbid any kind of instant message cause there are players who can't, or don't want, to use it. And what to say about excel bots? If we actualize every five minutes the top 100 rank and save it to an excel file, and then order it, the one who doesn't know how to do it will be in disadvantage.

I'll follow. And the guilds which have mages in different zones of the planet and can maintain a 24 hours vigilance over a big group of enemies? This is also an abuse for the guilds that are a group of 5 friends joining to play. Ok, it's clear, we forbid guilds, except if all his players play the same time, and the rest of the day don't touch their mages.

Let's be serious, men, the well known claim against bots in Mari wasn't about the advantage they gave, but cause they overcharged the server damaging seriously playability. They were merely tools to make the game much more comfortable to play.

So then, what we should debate (specially the admins of the game) is the damage the server suffered due to that tools, and how much damage can the massive use of them do. That's the question they should study, and weigh, from the answer, what measures they should take, that means, what tools are allowed and what aren't, to avoid harming the normal developing of the game.

Some of the conclusions made here (I don't want to name nobody, everyone should assume their options) seemed to me spared, with a lack of info, and a bit interested (I could say very interested) in obtaining parallel gainings out of this matter.

Ok, I have no more time to write more, I think my opinion was well expressed (but when I'll read this again in some hours, I'll sure would change a lot of things). Greetings everyone.

[_LoKy_]

About public lynching against gae bolga  is interesting to indicate that his accesses to the page could be owed perfectly to a http client by autorefreshment, but curiously nobody speaks of top1 with 6000! accesses more being this magician much more new than the previous one.


It is of supposing that here everyone defends his interests and forgets the rest of facts to obtain a personal benefit for him. And even we have cases of patronages and particular interests between the moderators in this way. While you spill shit, included some moderator, I and some others hope for an  that a rigorous investigation is carried out.


Certainly meanwhile, we will mount a circus and will make the life happy in the forum, for amusement and merriment for those that nothing imports this for them

[Panther]

I understeand you Iratus, but i think that the use of multis is also and advantage for all the guild, is inocent believe that only 1 mage do a multi and get benefits for only him. In the reality multis are used by all the guild. By example, white mages full of gold being pillajed when needed by any memeber of the guild, red mages trowing VE when any mage of the guild need get soft a counter. Blue mages trowing spells, etc etc.
I think this is worst than a bot, anyways, we can discuss this and be sure we are going to agree in 1 thing
The multies and bots are chetaing and are bad for the game

the order of the wich is worst i will say they are to close to chose 1 without any doubt  =P

a guild does not multimage unless it votes or declares something on that issue. for the most part it is individual and has nothing to do with a gguild decision

this guild voted, as a guild not as an individual to cheat and gain an unfair advantage.  now anf forever more the guild responsible will be remembered for being a bunch of no good, cheating, hypocrits.

when their guild is deleted and mages have to be reincarnated for their cheating offense one would hope that they try to play fair in the future

the high and mighty are really the ones who have been cheating all along...

is it worse then multimaging by and individual. whatever i think its worse but guess what? they punishment is the same

deletion...


and guilds that gain unfair advantages for cheating dont legitametly win wars or hall spots

==============
as for the quote when multimages were around

pillages didnt work,
ve's didnt work,
spells didnt work,

however, now they do and the game is mostly clean of multis and the guilds that used to use them, but yet full of bot users who spell and ve people whenever they move.

[Iratus]

This is a general discussion. The investigation is on going. No one has been accused yet. like any investigation you collect the finger prints before you make a charge.

culprits are become more clear with a extensive investigation.

So please dont be premature in your posts.

[Dracolich]

Well, after talking with Gae Bolga a lot about this matter, he convinced me to stay out of this matter until it's resolved, and to move this topic to the bilingual part to allow spanish posters to say his oppinion. I will delete everything related with the other discussion here, and encourage everyone to say something about it.

Though I recognize I could have acted in this topic more "openly" if I should know more of this matter, is this "ignorance" what I hope make some people see I treated this topic as one more and apply the rules strictly, and not any other reasons.

---------------------------------

Bien, despues de hablar con Gae Bolga mucho sobre este tema, me ha convencido de permancer fuera de la discusion hasta que sea resuelta, y mover este topic a la seccion bilingüe para que los españoles puedan dar su opinion con facilidad. Borrare todo lo relacionado con la otra discusion aqui, y animo a todo el mundo a que ponga algo sobre el tema, que va a traer cola.

Aunque reconozco que podria haber actuado en este topic de forma mas "abierta" si hubiera sabido mas del tema, es precisamente esta "ignorancia" la que espero la gente entienda me ha hecho tratar este topic como uno mas y aplicar las reglas estrictamente, y no otras razones.  

[patchan]

We will see after the investigation, no need to be so hasty silmar

Nos vemos despues de la investagcion, no necesitas decidir "quickly"

=)

[Liante-]

que grandes soys xd! usando boot para poder matar magos !!!

Frank espero que reciban su castigo!!

[Silmar]

Any body can say me why Liante can speak in spanish here and Loky can't do it? pls...

Silmar

[patchan]

Silmar, Dracolich has moved teh thread over to the union f honor to let everyone put in thier opinions.

Before this, it was in the english only section of the forums, and that is when loky was asked to speak english.

Dracolich transferred the topic

[Silmar]

ah ok, Thank you Patchan


Silmar

[WolfWarrior]

most games consider auto-refresh, especially set high, scripting, which is the same as a bot and therefore illegal.  Now for the IRC bots. Bots always draw down the resources of the server, and they are constant draw downs.  The reason why bots are and should remain illegal is that the people that are benefitting them are not playing the game to obtain the information. Sure they may be logged into game and working on their mage(s) but they are not actively looking for the information, leaving the bot to do it.

To start I have read things like "guilty". Guilty of what? Of using a tool the admin implemented in the game? Of improving it? Then, why not forbide every tool that give certain advantages? Stack calculators, mana calculators, every kind of calculator (even the Casio type) cause not everyone has them and give his owner a considerable advantage over the one without them. Let's follow, we should forbid the IRC between players too, cause everyday info is shared about mages by that way and that's clearly an advantage over players, like me, who don't use it or rarely; also we should forbid any kind of instant message cause there are players who can't, or don't want, to use it. And what to say about excel bots? If we actualize every five minutes the top 100 rank and save it to an excel file, and then order it, the one who doesn't know how to do it will be in disadvantage.

Thats carrying things t0o far and is justifying bots.  There is nothing wrong with calculators,  they really do not give much in the way of benefit to the user. At least not enough to be decisive.  Most of em really only benefit the newbies anyway as most veterans, I would hope, would not need them except for some fine tuning which really doesnt give all that much advantage

[He-Man]

So we pretty much gave proof that a bot was used but nothing has been done. Hmm To bad it wasn't English players then we would have seen some justice in action!

[Jame007]

This subject is being investigated by Council

[patchan]

What Jame007 means is that the issue is being investigated by the council at the moment.

No decision has been reached yet and I reapeat, the investigation is ongoing

MOD

[Jame007]

I want to say being investigated not been investigate, sorry